📍 the idea that the customer always is right, is wrong. What actually is right is that , everyone who's in that situation should walk away with their dignity intact. Whether you're the customer the person providing service, you should have your dignity intact.
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📍 Welcome to Lonely At the Top, a podcast for high level leaders carrying the invisible weight of the world. Because you know the higher you rise, the fewer people you can safely talk to. Here we welcome founders, executives, and decision makers who feel the isolation and pressure that comes with power.
Lonely At the Top is your sanctuary in the storm, and I'm your host, Soul Medic and former psychotherapist, Rachel Alexandria. Today on the podcast we have Dr. Kazique J Prince. He's a psychologist, executive consultant, and founder of Jelani Consulting and the Djembe Card Deck tools he created to help leaders build trust, connection, and belonging in times where isolation runs deep.
Great fit for our conversation today. With more than two decades of experience advising mayors, CEOs, and change makers, Dr. Prince helps people at every level turn leadership into a shared human experience, not a lonely one. Okay. I gotta ask, did you craft that bio just for this show, or is that what it already says?
Um, that's pretty much, yeah, that's pretty much straight up.
That's amazing.
in so many.
I always like to talk about how I know my guests. 'cause sometimes they're people I know very well. Sometimes they're clients. We don't know each other really at all. I saw an interview that Kazique did on his LinkedIn and it just struck me. I was like, this is a person I'd love to have on my show.
I am excited to get to know you better and to just learn and hear from you and your experience.
Thank you for inviting me. I've been looking forward to having this conversation with you.
So you're a psychologist. Let's explain to folks who aren't in the industry. What is the difference in layers between psychotherapists, psychologists, and psychiatrists?
Yeah, for me, I'm a counseling psychologist, which is a little different than clinical psychology and really counseling psychology there's master's levels, but also PhD level. And I'm a PhD level, and what that really looks like is additional four years beyond the master's degree. You're getting more clinical work. You need more research experience. Oftentimes you're working with someone, a professor who's doing research, and then you spend an entire year, almost like a, a medical doctor does a residency. I had to do a year's worth of counseling, at a, for me, it was a counseling center.
Some people do, vet
centers, other kind of locations. and , you do that for a year and then you have to do a dissertation , based off some research that you've hopefully started earlier in your program. And the difference from psychiatry, to be honest, they're blending more and more because you have some psychologists, if they go through additional medical training, can actually get, privileges to prescribe for, mental health,
Nice.
psychotropic drugs. But psychiatry follows a, a different trajectory in the medical field. Oftentimes they're physicians and they decide, I want to go the route of a psychiatrist. And
Got.
The same basic medical training as other physicians may, but they decide to go the route of mental health and psychiatry. And so they go through that training and get licensed accordingly.
So this is just for everyone here who's not in the field, because most of the time when I say I'm a former psychotherapist, people they're like, oh, you prescribed drugs. No, no, no, no. I did not do that much schooling. Mm-hmm. I did the master's level and I stopped because I thought it'd be nice to have doctor at the front of my name, but that's literally the only reason I would do it.
And that is not enough of a good reason for me, but I am so curious. What was your field of research?
I focused on, the connection between authenticity and and multicultural counseling competency, and at the time it
Wait, wait, wait. You got to explain this pretend I don't know anything about the field. What does that mean?
authenticity is basically how connected you are to yourself and the people around you,
Uh.
and how confident you feel in who you've become as a person. And being very grounded, and it's a lot of different layers to it, but it's fundamentally that's what authenticity was. I wanted to make a connection between that and multicultural counseling competency, which is basically someone's ability to effectively work across different cultural, backgrounds regardless of what their background may be. Also maybe even knowing your limitations, right? So I'm a heterosexual, cisgender black male, and so knowing what that means as far as my background and how that , is, uh, impact of some sort negative or positive or neutral as work with other people from different backgrounds and building my awareness around that.
So what my dissertation was trying to make the case for was that if the more experience you have, the more multicultural competence you have, the more authenticity you have. And what my research showed is that there actually was a, at least a correlative, not a causation, but a correlative connection between the two. And what we found out is there was actually a plateau over about 10 years. So you didn't really see a strong increase in, , multicultural, competency. but after that 10 years, you see a jump again. So it would basically kind of go like this, go up and then plateau for 10 years and then go up again. Which kind of makes sense to me. And, and when I say this, it's going up, it's connection to authenticity because when you're
Gotcha.
You know, you're just trying to figure out your profession and what you wanna do, and you become more and more confident in that. but then there's a point where you just kind of plateau. And part of that's because you're just trying to establish yourself as your career and
Mm-hmm.
in that career.
As a counselor.
as a counselor, right?
Okay.
whatever you decide to do. But these, the people who I researched were therapists
Yeah. Yeah.
And then there's a point after 10 years, there's a jump again. , And their ability to be more authentic and that makes sense. Um, 'cause
Okay.
give give no Fs after a certain part.
And so I think there's a certain authenticity that comes with age and experience and those kinds of things.
I'm like super into this already. Apologies for everyone listening to the podcast who might not be like a psychology nerd. Obviously I eat, sleep and breathe this stuff, behavioral sciences in general. So you're gonna, you're in for the ride . So tell me about how you studied the multicultural competency.
What were people doing
Mm-hmm.
improve their multicultural experience and how did that correlate? 'Cause what I heard you at first saying is, in the beginning when you're a counselor, you're just trying to get your feet under you, and after 10 years your level of authenticity deepens.
Mm-hmm.
And then again, after another 10 years, how is that related to the multicultural experience?
That's kind of my area of expertise and people do it in different ways. Some people start with learning about other people, whether it be reading books,, developing relationships with people, reading history, travel, uh, mean there's all kinds of ways of doing it, but a lot of that work actually starts more with yourself. There was even a time being uncomfortable saying I'm cisgender
Sure.
or
Right.
was like a thing. Uh, and this still is for some people,
Yeah.
it really kind of exploring who you are, the different layers of the cultures that you represent. How they manifest, how may they may not manifest, how they may be more salient than others.
So example of that is that my African American, status and what it means to me and being black is really important to me. But not all black people feel that way. Some people feel like it's invisible. Some people think it's somewhere second or third, maybe after being a woman or being a doctor or something else.
Mm-hmm.
everyone sees it the same way. But the point is, that kind of exploration and developing some understanding, sometimes it's people who have had shame about their race or background. You hear that sometimes with folks, again, from different racial backgrounds. Most recently I heard a story on NPR where a woman just really didn't acknowledge her being from Vietnam. And over a number of years she finally visited Vietnam and then she developed pride. But that's the kind of ways that you're, you're going from having very kind of rose glass perspective on your culture or cultures to having more, that's more realistically based where you're seeing not
Hmm.
things that you love about it, but also some of the things maybe you're not as happy about, but then finding some kind of, resolution around that. Example.
I'm a heterosexual male. I know a lot of men who have behaved very poorly. I've come from a background where men have behaved very poorly, and so I have to reconcile what kind of heterosexual male do I want to be in this world? Do I replicate it? Do I change it? And, as a father, how do I, manifest the kinds of things I want my son to experience, but also my daughter. And so just those kinds of explorations in very dynamic ways, I think is part of the process for any clinician who sees multiculturalism as an important piece because it helps you be more grounded and more aware and not treat everyone like, they're a machine. And what I found was other things that people, and course this, this is more than 20 years ago, but people who are more cognitive, behaviorally oriented strictly were less, authentic and less multicultural in the orientation compared to people who were other, modalities.
And I think that's partly because cognitive cognitive behavioral kind of lends itself to behavioral. And , if we just focus on the behavior regardless of their cultural background,
Mm-hmm.
behavior. But I think most of us have learned that that's not always true. That oftentimes the culture you come from has a real impact on the behaviors that you have.
Yeah.
I'm sorry,
Well, we.
a long
No, no, no. Please don't apologize. I'm totally into it. People will tune in and tune out as they do. For some people this'll be like, this is amazing and so interesting. And some people will be like, woo, it just went over my head. That's okay. For those of us who are wonky in this field, I think that's super interesting.
, I have like five questions I wanna ask. When you're talking about modalities, I'm just gonna name this for the audience because again, that gets far into our shared field of expertise, modality is basically how your clinician, your counselor, your psychologist, what stance they take to work with you.
Because all of this is sort of invisible strategy essentially. Most clients never are gonna be aware of the kind of strategy your clinician is using to try to help you.
Right.
I was just talking with one of my clients also has been a guest on the podcast about the couples therapy that they are in with someone else.
I mean with their partner, obviously. And was talking about how frustrating it was that the therapist kept just saying, well, what's going well? Well, what's going well? And that's not how she's oriented, but they're really trying to help her partner. And I said, you know, it sounds to me like they're probably using appreciative inquiry.
This is a specific strategy to focus on the positive to engender these kinds of feelings, et cetera. And then she became less frustrated because she understood what was the mechanism behind what was going on.
right.
So just a little bit of background for those listening who might be like, what are you talking about?
Modalities? What do you mean cognitive behavioral? Cognitive behavioral was kind of like the main default for therapy for a long time. And now there are others that are gaining in wider popularity, but cognitive behavioral is like, think about this, change your thoughts, change your behavior.
, Making it sound like it's simple.
Right. The triangle, right? How I feel, how I think, how I behave.
Mm-hmm.
how I behave, I can change how I feel. And I think,
Nice.
they're all viable options. , But not
It's good to have some piece of that, some piece of that has to be true, but people who are mostly focused on giving therapy that way, we're found to be less authentic. Sounds like.
Yeah. Because I think, this is just my personal philosophy, so I'll get away from the dissertation, I think sometimes. , Even how it was taught to me 20 something years ago,
Mm-hmm.
much like, here's the manual and we follow these steps, you'll have this result.
Mm.
very kind of impersonal and not very connected.
Mm-hmm.
not, I'm not saying every person who does that, they approach it the same way.
Right?
I'm saying is that, this is really about the medical model, right? Of trying to come up with something that we had confidence was actually going to change behavior if you do these things. And it was pretty straightforward.
I mean, if I do these things, if I get anxious and I go through these steps and I use the square and do breathing exercises, I should feel better.
Hmm
it should be, but it doesn't always work out that way. But
mm.
That's why cognitive behavioral was kind of a champion in the field because they were one of the first ones to really demonstrate pretty consistently that they were effective. Not, that others didn't. It was just pretty
percentage. Yeah.
and all that good stuff?
Replicable. Right? It's not just about, so side note, for anyone who cares. When I was in grad school, we studied five different modalities. CBT was not one of them, I think because they thought that it was, I went to a really weird, a really like get the person who's in the chair to really be clear on what's going on with them so that they can be more of a resource.
We studied, Mendel who was the structural, right? Structural modality.
memory. Yes, he is.
Yeah. And I thought it was fascinating when they'd show us examples of it and then we had to write a paper. Our thesis was about how talking about these five modalities we're supposed to at least be versed in, even if we don't use.
And I found a quote about Mendel that has stuck with me. It's not just applicable to therapy. They said the magic of his modality may have been the man
Hmm.
and not the modality. And I, I think about that with Byron Katie. I think about that. There's so many different kinds of people who are out there helping or creating results.
Mm-hmm.
Some of it's about their modality, but sometimes it's just that that person
Yes,
has a magic,
yes. And what's funny about that is I would feel that way probably about a lot of therapists and psychologists who've come up with a modality in an attempt to share it with
Yeah.
Uh, Carl Rogers, when you watch the videos of him and he was, the person-centered, human-centered kind of therapy,
Hmm.
that he just did it Now, I mean, we could all learn it.
Don't get me wrong. The videos were great, but there was something about him that was
Yeah.
categorically than probably most people at that time
He just embodied love.
yeah.
I think, I think that's part of what, you know what you have to have to be a good clinician. Okay. I'm gonna redirect us because this is not a therapy podcast. This is me just being super interested. So I love it. And I hope we get to talk another time when I don't have to hold the structure. 'Cause this is the Lonely At the Top podcast. So you have this, PhD and you're a counselor. And how did you go from that to working with all of these different, like mayors and CEOs? How do you go from being essentially a therapist? Are you still called a therapist when you're a psychologist or No?
Therapist is kind of a broad
Broad term. Okay. yeah. How do you go from being that kind of person who's just seeing people and taking health insurance and blah, blah, blah, to being that kind of high level advisor? What was that trajectory like for you?
Well, I think it was partly because I worked, primarily in university settings. So when you work at a large university, like here for me, that was University of Texas. You could do therapy all day. See 30 clients and that's all you do, that's all you think about and nothing else.
Mm-hmm.
other psychologists, may have a side project here. And maybe it's working with people with eating disorders. Maybe it's working in advising a African American organization or Hispanic or women's group. that's still just a very small piece of what you might be doing, particularly at a large institution. With a small institution.
I was at a small private Catholic school. I got to wear many, many hats. I helped with orientation. I ran the Alcohol and Drug Education program.
Wow.
I did stuff around, uh, DEI, we didn't call it that. I think we called it multiculturalism, kind of efforts,
Mm-hmm.
wear multiple different hats and have different kinds of experiences, which is what I really didn't know it at the time, but that's what I was looking for. because, another area of expertise I, I had was around career development. And so
Hmm.
um, a Myers Briggs test long time ago, and my Myers-Briggs says, I was extrovert, intuitive, thinking, judging,
Okay.
means I'm more, you know, outgoing. I'm, I make decisions intuitively instead of just on the facts. I'm more of a thinking, more analysis oriented, and I tend to like things to have the ends wrapped up. I don't like things to be too loose at the end. and that is your typical therapist?
No, no, I'm an E. I'm an E. I have a whole beef with Myers-Briggs. That's a side note,
right, right.
you know why. Yeah. Uh, but I am an E and a J. The other two swap on me all the time. But I'm, I am high level extrovert and I am a high level J and I did not feel like I fit in at my therapy school. I was a weirdo.
Absolutely.
Well, you find that out really quick. 'cause a lot of the people around you are not the E or the J
They are not. Mm.
And it wasn't because I didn't wanna stay in the career. I was quite happy being supportive of the students and faculty and staff and doing that work. but, the more I did it, the more I found out I really liked working with systems and organizations. And so that first foray into that space was around alcohol and drug education work.
Mm.
Uh, so you're working Yes. With students and helping them, but then there's the policy of the institution. There's the what discipline you wanna put in or not, what educational services. You're, so you're now putting a more layered approach to the work.
You're still thinking about people just, you're talking about groups of people versus an individual or a
Right.
a
Yeah. Systems.
There's still, it's, it's still a system. It's still a organism, right?
Mm-hmm.
So you're still applying the same kind of thinking. It's just now with groups of people. And I had been focusing on, cultural issues for quite a long time.
I'm actually a board certified African centered, black psychologist. And what that means is that kind of a deep dive, lots of training around African centered values. So a basic difference is traditional western psychology that most people are familiar with or heard about, tends to be very individualist oriented, very focused on the individual and all that. whereas Whereas in African centered psychology it tends to focus more on the communal aspects of it, so it doesn't erase the individual, but seeing the person within the context of the people that they're connected to,
uh, Mm.
this idea of, I forget the phrase, but it's this idea of I am because we are. And so that shift in approach and understanding, not just in that area but other areas as well, really has just provided me a different lens, uh, to understand people and circumstances. And again, that deep dive into cultural differences. And that translated into me, not just understanding black African centered kind of psychology, but the experiences of other cultures and other peoples and diving deep into the LGBT community. Just all kinds of different cultural groups and experiences. And I found I really enjoyed working and advocating for students, uh, for people in the community who are struggling. 'cause what you see, there's a lot of suffering people
Mm.
And so seeing that suffering, I needed to find a vent. Being a therapist, working one-on-one or small groups or with a couple, I just felt like I couldn't accomplish as much as I wanted.
Um, so working , more like a consulting psychologist or a, um, industrial organizational psychologist where you're working with systems I kind of made the move. And after, several years, I decided to move and start started my own consulting firm, which was hard at first, I'll be real honest with you.
For sure.
but, it's been beautiful to move in that direction. There's some days I miss the therapy aspect of the work because you really get to know people in a very deep, important level. Uh, it doesn't mean I don't have those experiences anymore, it's just far less than I had in the past.
Yeah.
So that was the transition. And I just, I felt like it more better aligned with my personality and, I got to talk to a lot more people and deal with a lot of different, different kinds of circumstances and travel and all that kind of stuff as well.
So it just was a big shift, but an important shift for me.
What I notice is, so I just had an interview that I did before this with Dr. Mark Vossler, who is a retired physician. He's with the Physicians for Social Responsibility. And the reason that they do that is he was saying, I learned in medical school only 20% of a person's health is affected by their individual choices.
And the other 80% is cultural and environmental factors. And so these physicians see it as their responsibility to impact on this larger scale.
Mm-hmm.
Right. And so I'm hearing that theme and I'm, I'm also reflecting as I do this show, I learn a lot from all my guests. I think leaders tend to be people who think more systemically, who, who want to have an impact on a systemic scale.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I mean, if I decided to say I wanted to be a therapist or work as a clinician, I, I may not have these kinds of conversations or I might do it in my free time.
Yeah.
but it really, is a different way of thinking, particularly when you're working with organizations, when you're working with corporations or school districts, because there's a certain kind of person who's gonna come in and just really gonna try to meet as many people as possible and help change each of those people's lives. And that's great. Me, I'm gonna get frustrated 'cause I'm gonna see some patterns. I'm gonna be looking up river
Mm-hmm.
okay, I see you're sick, but why are you sick? And I notice, is when you're drinking this water and it's not because the water's bad here, it's up the river. I wanna fix the
Hmm.
up the river. I'm looking at it from a systems perspective.
It doesn't mean the one I had used before was wrong or bad. I'm just seeing it from a different perspective because I still need the people down river who are working directly with people one-on-one
Mm-hmm.
how they're accomplishing their work as well. So they're both important in my mind.
Because healers are also a system.
Yes. Yes. They're
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I'm super into it and this is why when I just saw a brief snippet of an interview you did, and I was like, this person feels like we are totally excited about the same types of ideas. When I was in therapy school, my school trained systemic counselors and organizational development, coaches, I guess, coaches and consultants, and I was really divided about which one to do. I kind of wanted both, but I did not want to spend an extra year of grad school money. So I, I was stuck with counseling. No, it is not cheap. So
what do you feel like you have learned? Because you're working with these bigger systems, which means you're going upriver more, which means you're talking to leaders more. What do you feel has surprised you the most?
Hmm, that's a hard one because, um, there's a point where you just see so many things and you see so much bad things. 'Cause you know, I was a social worker in the Bronx, and you see some really tough things. I grew up, my family's from fifth Ward, Houston, where's some rough things. So
Hmm.
a point where you're kind of like, you feel like, oh, there's nothing I can, that's, can surprise me,
Hmm.
, What kind of gets me sometimes when I'm not prepared for it, it disappoints me, is the selfishness or the greed, the depth of greed and selfishness that people can experience.
And don't get me wrong. Greedy, selfish people have, have, a challenge, right? There's a disconnection that sometimes they're experiencing and there's sympathy I have for folks who are deeply greedy and selfish,
Mm.
they, they're the ones who surprise me the most because oftentimes they're creating the most harm
Mm-hmm.
their selfishness or their greed. Keeping things from people, they're harming people, they're being mean-spirited towards folks. And that, for me, when I come across something like that, I'm just like, oh my God. And it, it just kind of throws me, not because I don't expect it, not because I don't know, it's there just kind of hits me hard, especially when you see the negative impact it has on people, which is usually what I see first is the person who's hurt.
Mm-hmm.
when you finally get to that person, if you do, like, bro .
You have forgotten that we belong to each other. Right.
Yeah. Yeah. And that, that's, it's,
And they're not usually happy right? When you meet them, are they happy?
Well, I mean, if you ask them, they'll tell you they're happy because, you know, maybe they're
Sure.
Or maybe, they've accomplished certain things in their life, but, oftentimes there's a deep, um, remorse. They're experiencing
Hmm.
disconnection that maybe they're experiencing. maybe that's okay for them. Maybe they're, you know, they don't have any desire to have anything deeper or more connected. They're like, I'm good. , But it wouldn't be life that I wouldn't wanna live. And it's not the one, I don't know. I just, I would hate a life where I feel like none of the people I'm around I can trust or feel connected to. I think it's part of our DNA, it's part of who we are as people. We're built to connect with people. And so the question I have is, what happened for you to be so disconnected from folks? Uh, because something happened, you weren't built that way.
Mm-hmm. Exactly. Do you ever get to ask that question?
Um, on occasion. On occasion particularly, back in the day when I did therapy, you talking about some, some people have had some tough, tough parents, family members, with,
Mm-hmm.
in school. Just terrible. And you think when you have those conversations, and we're talking about people who are borderline sociopaths,
Mm-hmm.
they,
Mm-hmm. It'd have to be, yeah.
right? And so, you know, if you have those kind of conversations, like we're talking right now, what it usually do is it helps you connect because you feel heard, and someone understands my pain and what I went through and how terrible it was.
And man, finally someone understands. For some of these folks, not all of them, but some of them, they're just like, yeah, it's just a story I was telling. It's no big deal.
Yeah.
And.
That's rough. Yeah,
that is rough and that is isolating and yeah, working with folks who seem to not care that they are isolated seem to not feel pain about that. That's a big challenge. If you're trying to work with a system like a, an organization or whatever, and you reach the people up river and that's what's going on.
How can you help?
Uh, sometimes I have to acknowledge my limitations. Uh, that did not make me Jesus Christ superstar. Um, and I'll be honest, as a consultant, I've had to be in those situations where I, I'm dealing with someone who, let's say they've called me in because there's an incident or there's been a situation, but they're not invested.
They're just going through the motions, right? , And you find that out pretty quickly, right? They're going through the motions, they're checking off the boxes. They wanna make sure they're not getting sued by anyone,
Mm-hmm.
they're not invested. They're just,
Yeah.
doing the bare minimum. They'll say, Hey, we'll give you x number of dollars to come and do this little speech for a couple hours. I'm like, you know, for the same money I could actually create a whole program for you. And we can do this over the next few months and really create some real meaningful change for your organization. Nah, I just need you to come in and do this speech real quick and, you know, we'll be done. And in those situations, I have to ask myself do, I won't even be putting my name on that?
Mm-hmm.
they'll say, well, he came in and, you know, we had a good time, but you know, there's real, no big difference.
I'm like, I told you that wasn't gonna do anything. But unfortunately that's what we've dealt with, for a number of years in this industry. Don't get me wrong, having good talks and book discussions and stuff like that. They have the value, but they're not necessarily gonna create the behavioral change or the cultural change that we're seeking.
And so
Yeah.
gets criticized it's the other deeper work that we oftentimes wanna do that takes more time, that takes more energy, takes more money, that folks are not interested in doing. , But we get criticized and. I think hence, that's part of the reason why we're in the situation we're in today all the criticism of DEI and other kinds of things.
'cause it's, and we knew it, we knew this wasn't gonna work, but they insisted on it. So we're like, all here you go.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Say more about that please. So in the past when DEI initiatives were being put in place, you and other people who were experts in the field felt like this wasn't really going to accomplish enough. Is that what I hear you saying?
yeah, because let's say you have a whole plan, right? But they stop you before the plan is completed. You're six months into it and they've changed approaches, maybe changed leadership or ran out of money. But you're like, well, that wasn't gonna change much. And most of the things that you're gonna see, just like in therapy, it's not gonna be a one and done kind of thing.
You
Mm-hmm.
once you find out in therapy, a lot of times when people come in for one or two sessions, they're just looking for symptom relief. They just wanna feel better.
Yeah.
have they changed as a person? No.
Yeah.
they can do that. Same thing with the organization. I can't come in and like read a book or, you know, do a speech or, , do a quick assessment to say, Hey, this is where we are. And think that any of those things are gonna make meaningful change. It just isn't. But we knew that and we would tell them this and they would come up with a reason why they couldn't, wouldn't, didn't want to, whatever.
Mm-hmm.
um, and you see the clear difference between those organizations versus other organizations with leaders who want that more deeper investment. how do we change the DNA of the organization?
Exactly.
How do we change who we are for the better? Because the whole point behind this work is to , make you more efficient, to make you more innovative, to make you more money. And so I constantly would tell people is that when we approach it this way, we're leaving money on the table. And it was my finance people.
Whoop. Yeah. What, what? I mean, you gotta say what they're gonna hear. Right?
Oh yes. I love talking to CFOs. They're like, Hey, we leaving money on the table. Uh, what?
Okay. Explain that to the audience please. How does, letting your organization continue to be in disparity, basically, right.
Right.
leave money on the table? How is an organization not being in a healthy, multicultural ecosystem, how is that making them lose money?
There's a bunch of examples, but I'll use the easiest one. Every time an organization loses an employee because they don't feel comfortable, they don't feel like they'll move up, they don't feel appreciated. Whatever the reason, , that's 10 grand. You know, that's recruiting, that's all the stuff.
10 grand for every person. Well, think about organization of a thousand people, 10,000 people. That adds up over a number of years. And , so I, when I work with an organization, I do things like, I do a, a whole assessment saying, well, how many people have you had to hire? How much money do you spend on them?
And then I go over some other, metrics. I say, I just need 10% of that to do my job. And when we do the analysis, we're talking about millions of dollars that the
Mm-hmm.
is spending. And so by doing my work, I'm saying, I just want a percentage of that. Because the reason being is that they're probably losing talent on a regular basis.
They're losing women, they're losing people of color just on the hiring aspect of it. But then by losing that talent, You've created an environment where people don't feel like they can be themselves, can be authentic, can feel like they belong and feel included. And so they don't bring their best ideas.
You're familiar with the Simpsons, right?
Mm-hmm.
Well, Simpsons apparently when he joined Fox, he gave the Simpsons because he thought that was his throwaway idea. He, he, he had these other ideas that he thought were brilliant. He says, no, I'm gonna give the Fox the Simpsons 'cause, you know, whatever I give them is gonna be theirs. And so, it was a mindset of let me just give them the bare minimum to fulfill , my contract. And then you, y'all do what you want with it.
Mm-hmm.
that sets in for some people to just do the bare minimum. And we saw
Mm-hmm. Quiet, quitting. Mm-hmm.
And so you just do the bare minimum and you're wondering why people are not feeling very satisfied 'cause they're not being in innovative, they're not feeling creative. And the ones who are feeling that way are the people in positions of authority and privilege. And that's a small part of the organization. 'cause even the white men who should feel like they're privileged under this dynamic that we're talking about also don't feel like they're part of the organization at all.
It's only the ones who are high up with higher incomes and blah, blah, blah, who've been part of the organization for 10 years. Those are the ones who feel like they can do anything they want. Other folks just don't feel a part of what's going on. So all the good ideas go to someone else. They end up leaving
after a couple of years. There's more conflict. So HR is doing more conflict resolution between people who don't like each other. And so all the time wasted on conflict issues, not coming with the good ideas, losing talent, that all costs money. , And now you're not being innovative.
Now you're not making more profits 'cause
Mm-hmm.
respond to the whims of the market. that's another layer of money that's being lost. That's, that's four I've given you.
That's great. , Yes to all of that. And it's making me think too about, the feeds that I have on social media, which tend to be very celebratory of multicultural wins. Right. And just thinking about the history that, I'll speak for me from a white, cis, heteronormative culture,
Mm-hmm.
that I've been taught, men led all these innovations and then you find out actually Hedy Lamarr was kind of the origin of things like wifi and I was just reading this one about Elizabeth Montgomery, who was the lead, actress in Bewitched.
Yeah.
And the reason that that character ended up being so strong and independent and feminist was because she refused to kowtow to the network. They wanted her to be more subservient and learn lessons that she couldn't, counter her husband. And she was like, flat out refused after a few seasons was like, Nope,
Nope.
I'm not, I'm not playing that role.
Right, she's magical and she's gonna be like, okay, Darren.
Teach do what you want. Yeah. I think the overall theme here is when people feel welcome to bring their full self, everyone benefits. Right?
everyone.
I
And it's funny you say this, there was just a article that came out a week or so ago, , talking about the number of white men who have, , not been admitted to some of the universities in our country. And it's
think I saw this.
the DEI, the DEI efforts
Yeah.
that have been pulled back and people have been a little surprised by it.
Me, I'm not. I know DEI serves all people, right. But what they found out is that a lot of universities were intentionally letting highly qualified white men into organizations so they could have gender gender balance.
Mm-hmm.
So these are still all qualified folks getting into the school, but they're like, we can't have all these women in here by
It can't just be all women who apply in higher percentages to universities. We need to have a balance. So yeah, it was helping white men. Fascinating, right?
And so it's like, to me, that's the kind of thing I think people need to hear about the
Yeah.
value of these approaches. Because again, if you're talking about just a huge group of very talented people who all get into the program, but we need to have the kind of diversity and, and gender balance and racial kind of, I don't wanna say balance, but, variety. So when we go into the world of work, this global economy, or even if we just focus on our own country, we're so diverse. If we're able to
Mm-hmm.
I mean, there's people in Texas, they've lived in a small town their whole life, still have people today say, you know what, I've never had a black person in my home. I've never had a a, a Asian, never known, someone from whatever. And you're like,
I've never had a conversation with a trans person that kind of like,
Yeah,
yeah, I have a number of trans friends and to me that's super normal. And so I'm still kind of like, what do you mean you've never encountered or talked to a person who is trans? What? Oh, right. I guess it is a very small percentage of the population.
People who are outwardly trans and talking about it. And I used to be that person, you know, I grew up in a fairly, white centric environment and, I moved to Gainesville, Florida and that was my first time going, a place where the majority of people I was encountering aside from at the university were black.
And I was really grateful for it because it normalized a, a place where I was kind of like, Ooh, am I behaving right? Is it okay?
Right, right,
didn't like those responses in myself, but they were still there because that was my environment.
Mm-hmm. and the thing is, people, they'll feel bad about not having those kinds of experiences. And, and I think the question isn't so much, did you have those experiences? Are you open to them?
Yeah,
Are you willing to engage and notice your discomfort maybe in those situations? 'Cause that may be normal, right? , But then do you sustain and stay and learn and ask questions, build relationships? And that's really the fundamental difference I, I think, between a lot of folks. 'cause some people. What they're looking for is , the racist, the homophobe, the sexist who says terrible things like
and,
on the
and stands by them. Yeah.
Right. And so
Right.
not most people. That's actually a small percentage of people who are like that.
Yeah.
it, it's, it's the African American couple who I used to invite to go out to Italian restaurant and they would say no. I'm like, why? And they would, why would I eat that when I have good food at home?
They just weren't interested. It's just they had zero. They're like, I ain't gonna eat that. Well, I got this good food at, I'm like, have you asked your wife? 'cause I'm pretty sure she's tired of cooking for you. She's like, no, baby. I, I like my food better than all that stuff. Zero interest.
Like Ted Lasso says, be curious, not judgmental.
Yep, yep.
Right.
Really kind of basics
Okay.
yeah.
Let me ask you, what is a season of leadership that has really tested you?
Actually just did a video kind of reflecting on this. , This current season that I'm in is probably the, been tested the most i've been on so many different levels. Because I was tested when I became a parent. I was tested when I, got married and was developing a relationship with my, now ex-wife, but we were married for 16 years, so you get tested, right.
New careers, all that's great. But this has been a different kind of test I'm currently in because of the layers that's come through. the personal, right. On a real basic level. Not being able to feel like I'm able to fulfill the career, aspirations I've had. Because on another level you have the government. Politically, financially, intentionally trying to ruin people's lives. when you look at the 300, maybe 350,000 black women who've lost their jobs in the federal government because of the layoffs and different things that have happened,
Yeah.
the people who worked for government, but it's the businesses that were centered their, profits off of getting money from those people
Government funding and mm-hmm.
ate at their restaurants, who did all kinds of stuff.
And so when I look at all those different layers, and I've only mentioned a few, it's been very, very difficult to stay centered., And the blog that I focused on was this idea of walking through the valley through the shadow of death, and which sounds really morbid, right? Um, and if you're not
I fear no evil. Yeah.
I've had to be kind of in that mindset, not just kind of like, I, you're no evil, I'm Superman. It's not that at all. It's reminding myself of the people who are around me. It's from my perspective religiously or spiritually, it's the connection I feel like have with my understanding of, of God or Beloved. It's the friends who are like, Hey, what's up? How you doing? Because when you're walking through that valley, it can be very lonely space to be in. And you start really tripping and thinking maybe I did something wrong, or maybe, maybe I'm just a, I'm a, I'm a F up, you know? And, you have a lot of doubts sometimes in those moments. And this is very different than how I felt in past situations. Even when I was a parent. I'm like, I don't know what I'm doing, but I love it. I love this kid. They're beautiful. Whereas now you just, like, you start wondering, you know, am I doing something wrong? that's just, for me, that's just this space, space that we're in. And that can be those, those, um, ideas can fester sometimes. And so I
Mm-hmm.
intentional about grounding myself, reflecting, journaling, talking to people. At times going to see a therapist myself, to really battle these, not just demons in a metaphorical sense, but a literal government who's taken millions of dollars out of the pipeline. Because they made the parks free on MLK Day and Juneteenth, that was a DEI effort. So we're gonna change it and make it for, you know, Trump. And I'm like, you know, if you wanna add your birthday to the day, cool. Do your thing, bro. But you gonna take the other ones because they represent this group of people, and you don't want to even acknowledge Juneteenth as a national holiday? Mean, that kind of stuff is just like, it damn near feels personal, but he don't know me, but he acts like it's personal, the way he behaves. And I'm not just talking about talking about the president, I'm talking about all the people
Everybody who co-signs that. Yeah.
Yeah. And, and it's not about believing in DEI, it's about people.
Mm-hmm.
And to me it's fundamentally about um, I remember this from a training from Disney long time ago, the idea that the customer always is right, is wrong. What actually is right is that , everyone who's in that situation should walk away with their dignity intact. Whether you're the customer the person providing service, you should have your dignity intact. and I firmly believe that. I
Mm-hmm.
of us going about how we run government, how we run business, how we have our relationships, we walk away with our dignity intact. And I think there's too many people who are being "othered" that's how we talk about it. Too many people are walking away with their tails between their legs made to feel like they're not a citizen, they're not human, they're not whatever. They have no dignity. And that's fundamentally for me, a problem. And I just, I'm not tolerant of it. And it's hard. It's backbreaking. Um,
it's lonely.
it can be very, very lonely. But then you find out there's a bunch of other people , having the same problem. You're like, wait a.
Yeah, it's not, and that's why I love talking about it here because I think everyone needs to hear about this. I have people who are CEOs on this podcast talking about how they're an international business because they're moving product back and forth
Across country lines to manufacture. And it's incredibly isolating to feel like everything's unstable and I don't know how I'm gonna hold this thing together. I think leaders everywhere are kind of like, how do we talk about this without getting quote political? You know, how do we handle the fact that things are unstable and scary and we're not sure if we agree about the cause of that,
Mm-hmm.
So I think it's really important to talk about this all here because people listening to this show, I think there'll be people listening who think, Hey, maybe we need Dr. Prince to come and help at our organization, whether we call it DEI consulting or not. That we want to lose less money and we want to make all our people feel like they belong and they have dignity and are respected.
Yeah. And, and I'll be honest, you or others have asked that question around when it's something political, I always try to remind people that this is about, your values as an organization, as a person, a community, and how does certain things that are happening around us, how do they align or misaligned with our values? And I think fundamentally, regardless of your political persuasion, you have to ask yourself, what are my values and how is what's going on currently inconsistent or consistent with the values that I have?
Mm-hmm.
you're finding out as time has been progressing over the last year, there's a lot of things that are inconsistent with the values that we have collectively , as Americans, as people, as whatever basic human beings. And I think that's why you're seeing people making adjustments in how they're approaching things because they had their friend who they've known a long time, who they didn't know wasn't documented, but now they're gone.
Yeah.
heard about a team where literally it was a medical team where a lot of , the people who were there were from Venezuela and other south American countries, and they were literally all gone.
The business had to shut down. And so it's that kind of thing that people are just like, Hmm.
Yeah.
I'll be honest. To me it's kind of like I grew up in a household that was pretty homophobic, right? And I went up with it because that's what my church said. That's what my family said. And I kind of went with it.
And, you know, just, you just,
Mm-hmm.
I don't know, at a certain point in your life, you don't question things and then one day
Yeah,
like, that doesn't feel right. You mean they're
that doesn't feel good.
you mean they're going to hell? and you don't understand it. 'cause you don't maybe know anyone from that community, so you don't get to ask any questions.
And you,
Mm-hmm.
are pretty limited. But there's something internally for me, I think it's spiritual. I think there's something that was put in me, call it love, call it whatever that said Mm. That don't, that's not right bro. And you start asking questions and you become curious. Right. Then you find out, oh, that's not aligned with my values.
This is actually what I believe. And then you make adjustments and it takes time, it
Yeah.
You learn, you make mistakes, you mess up.
Yeah.
You see more consistency in that alignment. And I think that's what we've been forced to kind of deal with, um, as a community right now , and
Mm-hmm.
in the loneliness and isolation maintaining connections and taking that phone call from a friend heard from in a while, and
Yeah.
receptive instead of, closing the door and like, well, if I just work harder, everything's gonna be fine.
If I just put on blinders. Yeah. Okay. So let me take us into the private ledger if I can. 'cause you know, leaders don't often, we don't get to see their balance sheet of burdens,
Mm-hmm.
but here on the show we open up the private ledger of our guests with their consent.
Mm-hmm.
So I would love to ask you, what is one cost that you feel you've paid for being in leadership?
Oh, I mean, I would say in the last couple of years it started off slow, but to this point we're talking about at least a hundred grand, dollars wise that it's had a direct impact on opportunities. Um, things that, I'll be honest came, I don't wanna say easily, came with hard work and commitment and relationships and stuff like that. They just went away, dramatically. that's a real dollars. That's not made up in my mind. It's real money. and it's been a big, big challenge, to make adjustments. and so, for some people they've pivoted and found other things that have been, helpful for them. I'll be honest, earlier I mentioned the 300,000 plus women who've lost their job, a lot of them have not found other jobs.
'cause the assumption was they would go to, if you work in federal, then maybe you work at the state, but the state only has a certain number of positions. Okay? So you go to the city, but the
Yeah.
back because they had money taken from the federal government and by the state. And so, okay, go to the corporations.
Well, the corporations are freezing and getting rid of staff. And so the opportunities are very,
Yeah,
You got a lot of people out there trying to run their own business, trying to figure out how they're gonna get a client. Or how they're gonna do whatever. And so
yeah,
people they're doing, Uber or Lyft or working for Amazon, you know, packaging things they're doing what they can as best they can and trying to survive until things change.
yeah. And so when I say that's a cost you've been paying for being in leadership, like that's what you've paid to stay consistent with your values.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I
I.
I wish it could be just me being like a, you know, hardheaded, trying to maintain my own personal values. But when you've done this work as long as I have, the challenge you run into is. Is this the kind of person that they weren't working for their organization because we've abandoned , that idea, right?
Mm-hmm.
I don't know if I can hire someone to be in this role, even though it's a different role because there's certain values they're gonna bring with you. , There's a tax, a tax that you're having to pay. , And so , I've known people who have worked with career coaches who literally changed, their entire, resume.
They changed their LinkedIn page. And so what I've done is just focus on trust trust building um, uh, building connections between teams, dealing with workplace and civility, which is very much aligned with the work that I was doing before, but it's just a different way of talking about it.
Mm-hmm.
this is a challenge. If organizations are more focused on, let me teach you a new skillset. Like, how to learn this, technology over here, lemme get you more familiar with ai. They're spending less time on, leadership development as a area of focus. Does that make sense?
It absolutely makes sense, and it's gonna be interesting to see where the pendulum swings. in your, private ledger, tell us one invisible asset you didn't realize you had at the time.
um, you know, the thing I, I have to go back to is the network.
Mm-hmm.
and connections that are, they're valuable. They literally are the connections to opportunities. and to find those secret spots that I haven't looked in before that are really invaluable.
You know, um, I've had the privilege of, know, I worked here with the mayor of Austin who was well connected across people, across the state across the nation. And so I've used those connections in my work as a nonprofit leader. when I go to these national foundations or local foundations, I've used connections I've had with people or hopefully, when people get to know me or see my profile, they see someone who's, well connected, but also who's been involved with a lot of different initiatives.
And so I, I forget that because in my head I'm still. I'm still this 10-year-old who's kind of quiet in a
Yeah.
like my grandmother used to see me, I'll be in the corner just kind of watching with my eyes roll kind of wide. And it's like, I see you over there.
Hmm
many ways, that's who I am.
I'm kind of quiet to myself, over the years I've had to really, you know, manifest not a false self, a very, it's still who I am,
mm-hmm.
quiet moments, I'm that quiet kid over in the corner thinking and, too shy to open my mouth and stuff like that.
It's always funny, when we're overly invested in believing that people have impressions of us to confront the reality that people aren't really thinking about us at all. But there's equally the flip side for those of us who had maybe a more isolated childhood, were sometimes quieter or didn't feel like we fit.
That's me. I'm talking about right here, to realize that people are thinking about me. I just reached out to somebody and she said, oh my gosh, you've been on my mind so much. And I'm like, really? You know, somebody else like, oh, I've been listening to your podcast it's great. Really? You think about, oh, okay, so it's funny, people are both thinking about you more in a positive way than you probably know, but also thinking about you less in a negative way than you believe.
Thank you Jesus. Hallelujah. Thank you baby Buddha.
Okay. One more question for your private ledger. What is one investment you're making now for your wellbeing?
You know, um, I do it probably once or twice a month. I go dancing. Yes.
Nice.
, I used to go partner dancing. You know, I used to do, salsa , merengue , bachata,
Mm-hmm.
, Zumba, , not Zumba, but kizomba for folks the in audience.
Yeah. Yeah.
these are all, Latin, and or, uh, African based kind of dances. I used to do that, but, , it was too much work trying to figure out how to get the person to do the things you needed to do. So I just say, free myself and I go dancing at a place here in Austin called Sahara Lounge, they have old school, sometimes new school, hip hop and r and b.
Nice
And I just, I, this is me dancing.
I'm not necessarily dancing with any one person.
Uhhuh.
with whoever, the four or five people who are around me. And I just do my thing and I feel so good. And I keep track of my steps on my phone and I do usually about 12 miles worth of dancing, whatever that means.
That's a lot.
Yeah, but it feels so good, and I sweat so
That's amazing.
exercise in, I meet a few people, but I'm not really there to talk. So you can come on this dance floor if you want some of this. Yum, yum. Other than that, I'm about to dance and so when I invest in that, I feel so good I go home and I sleep really well.
Yeah.
the next day ready and prepared, and I've made it a priority to do that.
And that it seems simple and basic, but it has been so valuable, um,
Yeah.
how I stay connected to some people, but also just with myself and what makes me feel good and all that kind of stuff. And it makes it easier for me to go search, you know, this new philosophical approach that I want to use or, you
Yeah,
books. Um, you know, that has been a nice centering, activity for me.
I love it. That was a big part of my healing too, was Refinding dance. The dance studio was my temple. I was very clear, and I still have it in some, although not as much as I'd like.
Yeah.
I will give a shout out to someone else who's been a guest on the podcast.
My friend Angela Quach., She and LaShaun her, co-trainer. They combine r and b with bachata
Okay.
and they call it R and body. So they're bringing partner dance to the club. And my, my, uh, fiance and I are going to that. It's fantastic.
One of the things I love about Bachata is that it's such a easy connection to me to r and b, you , get those beats going. I'm like, oh, oh, you want me to shake these hips? That's what you invite
Yeah.
you. This is a serious business. Come on, let's do this.
All right. I've got two more questions before I let you go. The first one is, what do you wish more leaders felt permission to say out loud?
You know, I think there's a lot of leaders who are seeing , the madness that's going on right now. And for whatever reason, they feel like , the consequences are too serious or too much to manage. But I'm a firm believer there, there's a small minority of folks who are speaking very loudly, saying the wrong thing.
You're, you're loud and wrong. there's a lot of leaders, I think a majority who hear this and they know it's wrong, but they're concerned and worried about the consequences, not just for themselves, but for their organization, for the people they care about.
Right.
firms, these businesses, they're generally scared of the government coming after them.
Mm-hmm.
whether it's your business, whether it's your friend down the street who's undocumented or who's an immigrant to this country legally or, illegally. I think there's people who, if they speak out more and there's different ways of speaking out, right? There's, online, there's showing up at rallies, there's donating money. But I think more and more people are gonna start speaking up and speaking out and not feeling the fear. Because while they may have been fearful in the past, it's like, it's only so long. You can make me scared of, it's kind of like when my mom used to whoop me when I was a kid. It's like I got to a certain age, like I know what this whooping's gonna be like, so let's just get over with you.
Just take it. And you are like, all right, but you know, I'm gonna say and do what I, I need to do because I'm tired of these ass whoopings.
Yeah, yeah,
um, and I think people are getting to that point where they're just tired of what they're seeing and experiencing. Some people are like, can we just have a normal turkey day? Can we have a normal Halloween, a normal Christmas?
yeah,
have to
yeah.
and disruptive all the time.
It doesn't, yeah. I also wish more leaders would use their leadership to talk about what's real and talk about what's wrong. So,
Mm-hmm.
yeah. All right. Before I get to the last question, I wanted to offer if people are listening to this and they wanna get in touch with you, they wanna find out more about the work that you offer or just invite you on their show, have, have a conversation with you, how should they do that?
Yeah, there's, the good thing is, I'm on all this, the social medias, with the exception of Snapchat.
Yeah, that's for the kids on Snapchat. Yeah.
babies. For the more professional, LinkedIn, but I promise you, I'm the only Kazique Prince in the country. I looked, so if you get out there and look up my name, K-A-Z-I-Q-U-E, last name Prince, you'll find the multiple ways of finding me online, whether it be LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook. , And of course I have a webpage. , I have two webpages. Uh, first one is, Jelani Consulting. it's, , , J-E-L-A-N-I austin.com. Or the product you mentioned , earlier, the Djembe product. It's spelled D-J-E-M-D-E deck.com. Djembe Deck. And either one of those, uh, you can reach out to me and, I'll be the one probably responding.
Nice. Well, I wondered if you were excited that I pronounced that word right. I actually took djembe drumming class in college, .
Well, you know, it's always a nice test when you meet someone , 'cause you're like, they're probably connected to music somehow or another, or they're maybe know about the culture. So it's kind of cool.
Okay, so time machine question. I'm about to open up the time machine. You get to go to whatever point in your past you want. Where would you go and what would you say to that younger version of yourself?
Um, there was probably some time in high school or college, , when I thought maybe I wanted to be a minister or something. And the idea of wealth bothered me a lot.
I.
'cause I kind of thought of wealth as being, I don't know if evil is the right word. I don't like using that word evil, but it wasn't good.
And it was from the idea of biblically of, , your way to heaven is, the wealth, is easier for, , go through the eye of a needle. , And that really bothered me. And I would go back and say, Hey, wealth in itself is not evil. , It's what you do with it. It's the character, it's the values you have. Because I think I may have taken maybe a different path. I, I may have still been a psychologist. I may have been something else, would've not approached it as something that I'm not worthy of or it's not something I should aspire towards. It's not everything, but it's something I can actually use to benefit the people that I care about and, and create some good in the world.
So yeah, that's, that's one of the things I probably would say.
I love it. I love it. And yeah, everybody who's got a good heart and wants to help other people needs some healing around money.
Yeah.
money is for you. Money is your partner. Use it to do the good work you wanna do.
Mm-hmm.
Love that. Thank you so much for coming and having this conversation with me.
Oh, no. It was a joy and you made me think about things I haven't thought about in quite a while.
All right. Well, I hope we get a chance to connect again soon. 📍 Thanks for listening to Lonely At the Top. If today's conversation resonated, I hope you'll give yourself permission to pause even just for a moment and check in with what you might be carrying silently.
You don't have to hold it all alone. I work with high performers and leaders who wanna clean up their secret messes. You can learn more at RachelAlexandria.com. If you know another leader who needs to hear this show, please send it their way because yeah, it's lonely at the top, but it doesn't have to stay that way.