📍 I didn't wanna just be important for importance sake. I wanted to be impactful and change people's lives and facilitate change. Self-examination will lead to self loyalty. And I do believe that a self examined life leads to greater impact on others.
📍
📍 Welcome to Lonely At the Top, a podcast for high level leaders carrying the invisible weight of the world. Because you know the higher you rise, the fewer people you can safely talk to.
Here we welcome founders, executives, and decision makers who feel the isolation pressure that comes with power comes. Lonely At the Top is your sanctuary in the storm, and I'm your host. Soul Medic and former psychotherapist, Rachel Alexandria.
Today we have one of my favorite people that I have met in the last couple years, Michelle Markwart Deveaux. She is the definition of a Multihyphenate. She's an author, public speaker, facilitator, coach, consultant. And this was not in her bio, but I'm like, why not? Girl? Singer, professional, vocalist, amazing voice. So those of you who are just listening, you're gonna get some lovely ear comfort today.
She's the founder of the Speakeasy Cooperative, a company dedicated to teaching artists how to own businesses in a culture of on demand entertainment and embarrassingly awful residuals. She's also the woman at the top of Key of Sea. EO Coaching and Consulting. It's a boutique firm that works one-on-one, one-to-one with female femme consultants to restore sustainability and profitability in their own micro businesses.
I'm so excited that you're here.
I was honored to be invited because this is, I love the idea of this Rachel, and you are the perfect person to lead folks into this conversation. I won't lie, when you first started. Talking about it about, I was like, that's so cool. Maybe one day I'll be cool enough to be on that podcast.
Stop it. You were,
then, yeah, and then you were like, Hey, wanna be on my podcast?
And I was like, yes indeed. I do. I do.
here's the secret listeners. I had to ask her twice ' cause I think you forgot the first time I, I asked you.
you know what? I probably. So here's something that leaders don't tell you. They are full of, self-doubt at times, even though they can come off as the most confident strong people in the world. I think leaders learn to just do what needs to be done regardless of how they're feeling about themselves at the time. But I think where that leads is we will get opportunities that we ourselves don't, it's like we don't process it or we think that it's, kind of a throwaway. And I do think that this happens, especially with women and fem business owners. There's studies on that, in terms of self-perception and the market and doing businessy things and all of that. So I'm gonna guess that what happened is the first time you asked, I thought you were just being nice. And being like, oh yes, you can be on my podcast. And I
Oh no.
oh, she, so I apologize that I did not take you
No, no apology necessary. No, no. I know running a show like this that I need to pursue my guests a little because they're all fricking busy and that is okay. I accept that as just the general territory of what I'm doing here. So I did notice, I just was like, maybe she was just being nice like, yeah.
That's right. Well, and it's good that, I think it's good that we're saying this out loud, even for the podcast, because especially, as you said, lonely at the top with the busyness. I think another thing that leaders become really, really good at that makes it lonely is direct communication. So,
Say more.
yeah. So if we had stepped into a more direct communication pattern at first, I would've asked you, are you serious? Or are you just being nice? Then you would've been like, I'm serious, get on my calendar bitch.
And then, I've been like, great, thanks. And then just done it. so alas, thank you for pursuing.
I am good at pursuing that is something that is in my nature and I'm glad to do it. And that's so cute, why I started laughing when you were like, I thought you were just being nice. I'm like, that is not me. I'm a, I am a kind person, but, I very rarely will
say things I don't mean for, trying to get by. Not unless I'm, I'm really stuck in a hard place and kind of have to be like, yeah, sure, that looks nice. Bye.
Yeah. It's interesting. It's interesting we should talk about that
Sure.
we talk about like this idea of being nice and how is nice and kind different and the same, and when is nice, dishonest, honest? We'll
Yeah.
later.
I,
you
I mean, what I generally advise people, 'cause I, I work with a lot of high performers, my previous business name used to be Healing For Good Girls.
Oh
all my clients at the time were like, I don't identify with that. And I saw that it was a little infantalizing, right? I mean,
yeah. Okay.
it's hard to communicate that concept without using the word girl.
But it's not gender exclusive. It's not meant to be, younging people down. So it, but it, I changed the name because the people I worked with didn't identify with that title. But the concept was really how I started getting clear on the kind of people I love working with, which are people with really good hearts who are hustlers, who, who work super hard, who have become successful, but who
have a hard time with boundaries and people pleasing and they don't just ask, they don't just say things directly. So because of that being the clientele work I work with, I've had multiple conversations with people where I'm like, I appreciate what Brene Brown says.
Kind is clear, or clear is kind.
Mm-hmm.
Nice is about nobody ever disliking you, which is not, that's a fantasy that's never gonna happen. Some people don't like people because they're nice, like it's just never gonna get it.
if you're a person listening and you, have a aspiration to be lonely at the top. Because I do know that's an aspiration for people.
not the lonely part, but the top part. Yeah.
But they, I mean, they don't, may not realize that that's the aspiration, but you know, they have an aspiration to be at the top.
I think that. It's good that you expose that having everybody like you and being at the top are mutually
exclusive
You're just, it's not gonna happen. And so if you are a person that struggles with being misunderstood and have certain trauma responses to that, or nervous system responses to not being liked or needing to be viewed as doing a good job, which many socialized females have and women It's going to be real hard for you to get
mutual.
to the top.
I was raising my hand. Those of you who are just listening to the podcast, I was like, that's been me.
Yeah.
identify with that. I mean, I've been in business for almost 20 years, so I had to get over it, right? I had to work through it, but. I really used to hate being misunderstood, so I got really good at communication.
That was my, that was one of the ways I dealt with it.
Yeah. I'm glad you did that.
Me too. Well, so we've done a little celebration of our relationship, but we actually met, I like to share with listeners, um, how I know the guests. We are new old friends or something like that.
We've been to Disneyland together, so I think
That that says a thing that's like taking it to another level.
it's, but I met Michelle through, a business club called The Expert Up Club. That's run by Dr. Michelle Mazer, who is a good old friend of mine. I mean, she's not old. The friendship is old,
Amazing.
so we've known each other a couple years now. Yeah. And I've always been impressed with, uh, most of what I see Michelle doing in groups is being extremely kind and extremely clear and pointed in giving people perspective and consented to advice from her vantage point as a seasoned leader, which is why I wanted you on the show.
Thank you. Oh, I thought you were talking about Dr. Michelle and I was like, oh wait.
I mean, she runs the community. Of course, she gives advice and she's seasoned, but I'm talking about you.
Well, thank you my dear. Consent is really important to me, especially now in 20, this year of our Lord, 2025, when so much noise is just coming at you that we're implicitly given consent by scrolling and engaging in those platforms and all of that kind of thing.
But when someone is asking a question, sometimes we don't even know what we're asking.
Mm-hmm.
And so asking for consent to talk about a certain aspect can be not only a way to actually get consent and meet a need. A felt need rather than an imposed need.
Mm-hmm.
But it can also be a way to help the asker clarify what they are trying to do and what they need for themselves.
So try to always have that lens of agency and consent when I am giving feedback or asked for feedback,
Yeah. I love that.
indirectly.
So at the top of the show, we were talking about both of us having experience working in AV tech when we were when you were in grad school, I was in college. So you were back there in grad school for,
I have a degree in theology.
okay.
Yeah, so I
Okay.
a master's of arts in worship, comma theology, comma, and the arts, not worship theology, although that was included, from Fuller Theological Seminary in Pasadena. And this is a very old degree, what, 20 some years ago. But there was a brand new program there, and I am a person who really loves to get things started. If something is new and people are like, I'm trying this thing, I'm doing this new thing. I'm like, I would really love to be on the ground floor of that. Help you think through what you're doing with that thing. I mean, it's why I immediately say yes to a brand new podcast.
I'm not one of those people that waits for somebody to be famous in order to interact with them.
Mm.
I'm like, this is awesome. So Fuller was starting a new program they are celebrating. I think it's the 25th anniversary now or something.
Nice.
so I got to get in on that ground floor and talk about what is this program really gonna look like and what is its mission and vision. And that was for, a theology and art focus. Art being all inclusive, it's in LA so film and television, music, choral, acting, theater, dance. It was, oh.
Sounds amazing.
It was amazing then. I cannot speak for the current experiences, you
Of course.
people are having now, but it was very special and a very special group of people to be in those formative years, because if you say yes to a brand new graduate degree, you have to have a level of risk taking, like, is this gonna give me what I need and what I want for?
leadership. Yeah.
Right.
Back then, did you know that you wanted to run a company? Did you know you wanted to be in leadership?
I knew I, I was already kind of in leadership anyway because I was, pastoring
Okay.
and I knew I kind of always naturally was the leader. So even in like little friend groups or , when we're playing a game, I was the director of the show
Mm. Mm-hmm.
you know? and I knew I wanted to be a leader. I did.
I thought that it was going to be in a theological way continuing to pastor,
Mm-hmm.
but as I actually went through my degree and deconstructed a lot of my theology and a lot of my experiences. I realized that that was not going to be most helpful and impactful way that I could use my skills and gifts and that, the community that was really hurting was the arts
Hmm.
in general. And so I started my voice studio. Out of that. And when I was teaching voice, I was also, it's gig economy, right? So I was also working a little bit in film and television on the production side. I was directing youth theater. I was helping out arts organizations and kind of just all in these leadership ways.
Which inherently is business ownership.
Mm-hmm.
And I was fortunate to have figured out early that what i, I offer is a business. know, while it is me,
Mm-hmm.
it's not me. I need to figure out how to make money and sell this thing that I sell and this work and the scope that I do. I realize that a lot of people with creative brains in the arts, broad in the arts, from author, theater, music, whatever. Had not yet allowed themselves to learn to take themselves seriously in that way, and had, internalized a lot of narratives around the relationship between money and art, money creativity.
Mm-hmm.
were therefore, systemically underfunding themselves and putting themselves in situations where they didn't feel safe or valued, with thinking that they were stuck there. And so eventually it came be, after many years of that, that I realized, you know what? I've been helping people do this on the side just as an act
Mm-hmm.
of who I am, maybe I shall turn this into a real thing and put some legs on it. And then I did, and here we are eight years later.
Yeah. I mean, everything in that story is just, dripping with leadership. I recognize it. I hear it, and I mean, we love that on this show. I love that. I love watching. People who can do it, like people who have vision and see what's out ahead, apply their strength and their motivation and their integrity to solving problems.
I will admit that it was not. In, in the time of doing it, I did not feel like a leader. I didn't inherently say I am a leader and people are following what I say and do. It was very one foot in front of the next, and what is the next problem that needs to be solved? And oftentimes these problems were like micro problems, right?
That,
Hmm.
you really think about things in the grand world, you wouldn't think, well, that problem needs a leader. You know that that's not a problem that needs a leader. That's just, you need to do something different. And I'm like, but if people aren't prepared to do something different, they need someone to empower them and, and show them and help them.
So at the time, know, I, I kind of have only recently decided like, okay, I am a leader. is how people view me. This is the responsibilities and the expectations they're going to put on me, which is where I think the loneliness comes from for people in leadership positions. Having to deal with the expectations of others around leadership and what it means. But getting to this point is not a thing that I aspired to. I, I wasn't like, I am going to be in charge. I was like, just the next problem, the next problem, the next problem. And it took me a long time to reconcile that even being okay because I was, uh, of raised in a, a societal message where it was not humble for a woman to be in leadership.
It was, words around aggression and bossiness and
But
Yeah. You know, all of that stuff that
yeah.
gen X women who had the impact of the 1980s Christian right thrust upon us, whether
Mm
in that environment or not. That was a narrative that was definitely happening that we grew up with.
mm.
So I think I almost, sabotaged myself in many ways because I didn't think I was allowed to be a leader. I was allowed to take charge and I was allowed to want to be a leader.
Right. Yeah. Even, our desires could be shameful. Right. You shouldn't want that.
yeah.
Yeah. It's,
so we're done with that part.
I, I'm so glad you bring it out though, because most of the guests I'll be having on the show, probably for a while, are boomer generation or Gen X. There's some folks who are coming from the millennial generation, but a lot of us, Yeah grew up with that experience. Like I heard, don't be too big for your britches.
Don't be bossy.
Yeah.
I grew up hearing that and yeah, it was a number of years of me encountering that messaging in my head as I'm trying to run a business and then talking to my mom, who was one of the people who said those things to me because she was indoctrinated with that.
Even as she's always ends up in leadership, she always does, and she doesn't wanna be, but people always keep being like, you're the one who has this gumption, you do it.
You,
she just,
it with your gumption, but don't you dare talk about it or be proud of it.
I don't know if she got that messaging. Maybe she did, but when I was running a business, no longer a child, and I'd come to my mom with my fears of rejection and what if people don't like me and I don't wanna bother people, blah, blah, blah. She'd be like, you are not bothering people.
You are doing this. She gave me very strong pep talks, so.
I love that.
I do too. And my mom's been an amazing supporter. Even as I got some of that messaging as a kid, it wasn't intended to cut me down. She's just trying to help me be safe and
Yeah.
it's like I have a really specific story that I wanna share on the podcast because it was such an important moment for me.
I have a lot of stories that are very internal. Someone has told me once, like when I try to tell a story, they're like, cool. All of that happened inside of you. So it's not a great story.
Well, I would love your inside story. Would you share your inside story with me?
Thank you. Thank you. So, when I was in grad school, I also have a, a grad school experience that had a weird title. I got a, Master of Arts of Applied Behavioral Sciences. That's the degree that allowed me to become a therapist, you know, because we did qualify. It was a, a therapist training program.
And we did a lot of different kinds of self-organization projects. One of which would be like, do the end of the year celebration event for the graduating class. Before us. The ones that graduated before us. And I just have this natural leadership and was like, okay, I'm gonna do this.
I'm gonna, and I'm sitting there with all my peers and I'm holding the marker and then I'm getting pushback and I froze. I remember standing there with the dry erase marker in my hand frozen because somebody said something and seemed to be upset with me or didn't like me or whatever was going on. And I just sort of stood there like, eyes wide, like the buffering symbol, like over my face, right?
Like, uh, and one of the men in the program who was, more in corporate, I was never in corporate work. I was always working for the government or universities or whatever. He just kind of gently, I mean, he did this very gently and I don't blame him. Walked up and took the dry erase marker from my hand and then took over leading.
The group and I went and sat down feeling so ashamed and the messaging I took in right, which is not his fault, was, you are not capable of standing up to this. You are not capable of leading this group. You should go sit down. Right. And it, man, that was such a learning point for me
Yeah.
I have to learn how to deal with conflict.
But that was just all of the childhood messaging came flooding in. Oh, you're doing it wrong. You, no one wants to hear from you, blah, blah, blah. It was just such a, I don't get frozen very often. That is not an experience I've had much of.
And it was. Very visible for me at the time, a room full of, 70 people. My peer group, it felt huge. Just, you know, I'm turning red, all of that stuff. And that was, I think, the moment when I saw that I was really going, in retrospect, in processing it later, I have to figure out how to own my leadership because, what are the choices?
I can not step up and do things so that I don't have that kind of experience again, or I have to get stronger at this. ' cause the truth is then we went on to lead a, an event that I don't think was run that well. I would've done a better job.
Thank you for sharing that with me.
Yeah. Yeah.
can, I can see glimpses of how that experience helped you become so adept at leading individuals
Hmm,
facilitating when I've seen you just do that on a small scale. So that you unpacked that.
hmm.
I feel personally grateful that you unpacked that so that I could experience your amazingness in this time
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Did you ever have a moment like that? Did you, do you have those things that stick out as like, oh, here's my fork in the road Yeah. Tell, do you wanna share one of those stories with us?
Yeah. Um,
I.
I think the f the first major fork is interesting. it's not even about business, but I remember very distinctly having to decide if I was going to move to New York and pursue a professional arts career as a full-time career in New York. So musical theater happened to be what I did.
And then also jazz gigging, which in New York is good for both of those things,
Hmm.
uh, at the same time. So, and really having to decide. What do I want my life to look like on a daily basis? And it just so happened that it was , move to New York or get married
Wow.
and it, it wasn't the stereotypical get married and give up your dreams, but those are two very different lives that you're living
Hmm.
alone in New York, hitting the pavement, auditioning, gigging, getting to know musicians. 'Cause that's how I wanted to do that. I did not want to get married and move to New York. My husband is originally from New York and he would've done that 'cause he's like, yeah, New York, of course. but really deciding , but is that where my vocation is? Is that. Is that the ikigai? Is that the purpose of my life? And I remember exactly where I was sitting. I was outside in this beautiful little garden esque place just thinking if I go to New York, I'm going to live a selfish life.
Hmm.
Not the kind of selfish that is good for me, not a self loyal life, but a selfish life. But if I give myself this opportunity to be and at that time I didn't, we didn't think we were gonna have children, but surprise. So, then intentionally allow another person to see my crap and challenge me, and me challenge them. I'm gonna be forced to be self-aware and self-awareness will lead to self-examination.
Self-examination will lead to self loyalty. And at that time, and even to this day, I do believe that a self examined life leads to greater impact on others, uh, positive impact. 'cause there are plenty of people who are not self examined, who are of impact. That's not so pleasant. But,
Yeah.
and I thought, I know I wanna be fancy. I know I wanna be important. I know I want to do good, important work with that fanciness and importance. I didn't wanna just be important for importance sake. I wanted to be impactful and change people's lives and facilitate change. And I was like, I don't think I'm gonna be able to do that in the same way in New York as I would if I intentionally put myself in a relationship where the mirror will be held up every day,
How old were you when this happened?
29.
Okay.
Yeah. So it was old enough to know better,
Mm
enough. Old enough to have had enough relationships that I absolutely knew I did not want to continue for a lifelong period of time. Right.
mm.
, And, but I know that doesn't sound businessy, but it is such an impactful moment for me because it was the first time that I was so hyper intentional about the long view. And it, it wasn't the first time that, that I was like, as I said earlier, oh, just the next foot, just the next foot, just the next foot.
Mm-hmm.
was like, marriage represented a, a very long-term commitment to me. I did not have a narrative about , just leave if it doesn't work out. That wasn't, um, something I wanted. So to me it was literally a fork in the road. You either do this or you do that.
Mm
And I cried a lot. I grieved
mm.
giving up the decision to have this cosmopolitan arts-based life. You
Yeah.
the struggle, the glorification of the struggle that I was still enamored by at that young time. And I questioned it. Maybe
Yeah.
stupid and giving up on my dreams and all of this, but I couldn't get away from that
internal, I call it my nuggets. I couldn't get away from my nuggets just being like, you're not supposed to do that. There is something else that need to do.
Yeah.
And that was probably it. And it was tough because. Man to, to give up something that you've worked so long for or that you've perceived that you work so long for, to really have to reckon with yourself what you think success is,
Mm.
right?
Yeah.
was like if I marry this guy and have this kind of life where I'm intentionally opening the voice studio, I'm doing more low key gig work. I'm not like going and being on Broadway what, or trying to be, have I sold out? Have I given up and am I not successful?
Hmm.
And those were really hard questions to ask and I, I struggled with it probably for a good three or four.
I chose to get married, but I still struggled after it being like did I do the wrong thing? Not because of the person that my husband is. We've been married for, 18 and a half years now. So it's going pretty good.
Yeah.
It was, I definitely struggled with like, did I do myself wrong
Hmm.
by choosing Instead of trying to make it, at the end of the day, peace would come and be like, Nope, you're where you need to be.
Yeah.
And so, I don't know if that's a helpful story for anyone listening,
I imagine it's. I wanna call out some of the things you talked about. I love the distinction between being self loyal and selfish. I think that's a great distinction. I'm often having to talk my clients off of a ledge about the idea of being more selfish, because they often are too self-sacrificing.
But I think selfish can be good or bad, and I think designating it to, um, self loyal versus, self-aggrandizing. Right.
Mm-hmm.
that. Thank you for that. And I love that you're talking about having a fork in the road, listening to your intuition and what will lead you to the life that feels right for you.
Not the life that feels maybe the most glamorous, right? And that either way you chose there was going to be grief,
Yeah,
right?
What? Yeah. Especially when you're prone to glamor as I am.
well, you get to be glamorous. Now, it's just a different kind of glamor. And I always enjoy the, there's little things that always stick out in my memory. Little quotes, little moments where like, when I hear a truth that just gleams like a gem, in the rough or something like that.
And I heard, I'm not gonna remember right now who it is, thanks perimenopause, but I, I've heard a story about somebody asking a famous person or a successful person, how did you get so good at blank? And they said other things suffered.
Yes.
To acknowledge the grief of that, to get really good at whatever the choices, whatever the fork is you went to in the road.
Other things had to suffer or die, A dream had to die.
Yeah.
And when people try to avoid that, I think they really encounter problems. They either avoid making the choice and so they don't really devote themselves to anything. Or they make a choice but don't acknowledge the grief and then that lives within them as a, a thing that festers.
But you did not do that. You made a very thoughtful choice and you appropriately mourned.
I, well, yes. Thank you for recognizing that .
📍 Oh my gosh. So michelle and I recorded the first part of this interview, two months ago. We got cut out partway through and it's taken us this time to come back to each other and finish our conversation. so I am going to take us into the private ledger segment of the interview.
Because when you're at the top, no one sees your private balance sheet of burdens.
So if you'd take us into your private ledger, please and share with us one one cost you paid for being in leadership.
Ooh.
I would say the weight of responsibility has cost me, a lot of my spontaneity.
My personality is generally like, ah, we're good. Don't worry about it. I'm generally a very chill person, go with the flow. I feel more comfortable in go with the flow.
So it is cost me go with the flow because hmm. I mean, I do still go with the flow very much, but when there are people relying on you for their paycheck, I feel that it has cost me some of my, like it'll be fine.
Some of your nonchalant.
Yeah. I suppose to some people that would not feel like a cost. , That would be like, good, you got your shit together and you're being responsible. But, for me, that also feels like a loss of freedom.
Mm-hmm. Did we talk earlier in this conversation about your Enneagram type?
No, because I don't know what mine is.
I wonder if you're an Enneagram seven. That would be my curiosity
I do not know I,
Okay, someday maybe I'll bring more of the Enneagram into the show, but I'll send you a few things about Enneagram seven after, and I'll be curious to see if they land. Um, tell us one invisible asset you didn't realize you had at that time
Um, my ability to read people. I just thought everybody was like that and everybody had the ability to, see people for who they were.
Yeah,
Um, so that's something. Yeah. I love it. Yeah, no, that was awesome. Uh, so that is now something that I'm like. I have another one too. May I share another one? Even though you asked for one.
I suppose yes. Of.
I am really good at wearing different hats in relationships and knowing the boundaries, like when my relationship is client not client, or boss employee, or friend friend. So I get to have really lovely, robust relationships with people in multiple modalities, if you will, because I'm good at being like, Hmm, this feels like a coaching conversation.
We should clarify. Hey, am I doing a little bit of coaching here as your friend? Is this something that we should book something official around? And then also when things start to get consultant-ey, like, you know what, I have some prescriptive things that I'd like to share with you. I'd like you to consider, I'd like to go ahead and go out of coaching and digging for your deep stuff and just be prescriptive into a consulting modality and that I did not see as an asset until.
I saw it very clearly, like, oh man, people really like, they have so many trouble with boundaries around friendships and professional relationships. And I'm like, I don't have those same kinds of, struggles. So that is definitely was invisible to me. That is not now.
I am also very good at that, and I think you are the only person I know who's better at it than me. So I, I validate that in you. I have seen you walk those lines and what's awesome is that you are always really explicit and clear and in a way that is very permissive to the other person.
Thanks.
see.
I could step over here. Is that what you would like? Because I could also not.
Yeah, thanks for thanks. I see you. You're good at it too. So maybe we're just both so good at it. We think the other person is better at it.
I think you probably have been doing that in the leadership way longer than I have. I've been doing one-on-one relationships. You know, it's not a competition about
No, no, no. For sure, for sure.
I
No, you darling.
that. No, you, yes, and I also think we share that ability To have that deep insight into people really quickly.
It'd be curious to see our astrological charts next to each other. I wonder if we have some, twinning planetary placements or something, because that's a really rare quality. Being able to immediately see past all the layers of bullshit and subconscious and whatever, and just see what's really going on with a person is a super high level skill and and talent that most people don't have.
Yeah.
that you see it too, because walking around with that ability and not knowing that that is different than most people is a problem.
Well, it made when I didn't know that I was unique in that way or or a person that could do that, and I thought everybody else could do it, I would set myself up for deep disappointment in relationships. Right?
Mm-hmm.
you know, once you realize.
see me? Why don't they understand?
Right. Or watching other people struggle with each other and be like, how are they not communicating? Like this is not hard, you know? It's like, oh actually this is like super really hard. Yep. So those are my two.
those are good. Those are good ones. And yes, those are amazing assets.
Thank you.
check out those assets. All right. And then the last question from your private ledger, what is one investment you're making now for your wellbeing or your soul?
I am investing in my own time back. It's interesting 'cause I don't think I would've been comfortable to answer this question when we were doing the first half, because I was in the middle of adjusting some things in the business, I totally cut out a program in my business, that I had a lot of responsibility over, and I have another business, the Key of C Consulting, and kind of do some new things over there. So kind of taking my brain away from the current business because it's running so well, the team is so incredible, and then making that business even more high value for the clients. And using my time in this other business.
And it's funny because I'm basically like switching where I'm spending the time, but I'm using it so differently. The offer is different and the way I am approaching it is different. And for me that is for my mental wellbeing. For my physical wellbeing, it's my family's wellbeing. My kids will both be on a traditional school year next year for a long time they've been on two different schedules,
Wow.
and yeah, that is one big change.
So
Hmm.
cutting offers and starting different ones.
That's awesome. I'm excited. I wish I had like a little, you know, PPP, little fireworks, confetti things.
Thank you.
It feels like a big deal. Because I can feel, I can feel into that. And I think since I've known you, you've been talking about making some kind of adjustment
Yeah.
businesses.
Yeah. And it's funny, I was speaking to someone else the other day and I said, you know, , this is something that we don't talk enough about, about leadership. And having to make big decisions for businesses is that sometimes you, you will know what you have to do years before it's the right time to do it.
Yeah.
you have to be so self-disciplined to be like, I'm not gonna just go with my whim. Because I know what needs to happen, but I'm also intuitive and wise, and I know that doing it now is not right for the clients. It's not right for the team. It's not right for the whole business. It's not right for the zeitgeist of the world,
Yeah.
, I find that as leaders we're sometimes. Leaders are sometimes celebrated for making big changes fast, right? , Man, they're so decisive and they like do the thing. And I'm like, Hmm, I know a whole bunch of leaders that need to be celebrated for their self-discipline and not just pulling the trigger on something and jumping on something because they can tell it's a great idea at the wrong time
Yeah,
just sit and wait for the right time.
And I just really.
patience is harder.
Yeah.
I think it is. I mean, you don't get to be a leader without being somebody who's brave and willing to take risks
Right.
That's just a prerequisite for the job, so everyone's like, yay, we're all good at risk taking, yay us. But I think patience when you have to sit in the question. Even though you, you really know the direction you're going. The patience to sit in the question of what timing and , when are people ready,
Yeah,
that is a hard thing to do. And I agree that people who, master that ability or work that ability have something special.
me too. Yeah.
Well, I love the reinvesting of time for you.
It makes me happy to think about you having more spaciousness.
Thank you.
Yeah. All right. Two more questions
Okay.
for those. For those who are just listening, you can't see, but whenever I take a stance, with my expression or how I move my body, she'll mirror me. So I do like a side look, and she's like, she does the same thing. Okay. What do you wish more leaders felt permission to say out loud?
I am tired,
like just straight up I'm tired. I'm not gonna do that because I'm tired, you know? I, I think people say no. I think leaders generally do know how to set boundaries and say no, and, oh, I'm taking the day off and I'm doing this, and they do it in a very professional way.
Mm-hmm.
but
I think it creates an unrealistic expectation around what leadership is. And when I say I'm tired, I mean that in all the ways, like I'm tired of people, I'm tired of decisions. I'm tired of thinking, my brain is fried. I'm tired of the weight of responsibility. I just wanna go into a hole or you know, do something else.
Just that kind of stuff where I wish they had more permission because sadly it sounds like a great idea. Yeah. Wouldn't it be great if we were all just like open and vulnerable and can say these things, but there's so much pressure. That people put on leaders of all sorts. I don't even know if they do it on purpose or if it's just a learned behavior or whatever, but there's this sneaky underlying, we want you to be vulnerable, but we don't want you to be vulnerable.
We want you to be personable, but you better be a rock. We want you to be, those kind of both ands and so it really stops leaders, I think, from telling truths until after they've experienced them and gone through it, but it, you know, the permission to say it when it's actually happening.
Mm-hmm.
I wish really was truly embraced.
I agree. Yeah, that's a really good answer. I've asked this question a lot of times and I like your elaboration on that answer, I like the nuance of it, because you can feel from someone who's a systemic thinker, how they recognize a problem, but also how does the structure of the whole system have to change in order to allow that, as opposed to being like, leaders should just say, I don't know more, which is a great answer. And you know, could just happen. That one's doable and it feels simple and saying I'm tired. Everything that entails. And what does that mean for your organization? I like the acknowledgement that, easier said than done. Yeah. All right. Before we get to the time machine, which is our last question, I would love to know how people should get ahold of you if you want them to get ahold of you or how they can engage with your work.
Yeah. Gosh. Thank you for that question. We are in transition with our marketing and all of that, so I would say if you are an arts-based business or you know, an arts-based business that needs a little mojo, we would love if you, , would reach out on our Instagram, which is the Speakeasy Cooperative or our Facebook, the Speakeasy Cooperative, or our website, the Speakeasy Cooperative.
You can even just email me at Michelle@FaithCultureK iss. Haha. I threw in a twist there. , We're very, high touch, you don't have to be shy. Fill out our contact form or email me and let me know what you need.
And then, if you are a leader, business developer, you're a manager, B2B kind of stuff, or you're running a team of people. I think you can reach out to me the same way. , But my Key of CEO marketing stuff is over on LinkedIn, which is just my name, Michelle Markhart Deveaux, and you can message me there or again, email me Michelle@faithculturekiss.com.
And we thank you for your patience while this part of the business is being built. I'm so, yeah, I'm so grateful, Rachel, because , I'm grateful that I learned early not to take myself too seriously. You know,
Mm-hmm.
just do the work. Let people, you know, exist and the right people will reach out with the right things,
Mm-hmm.
then you can tell them more.
, But it does make it hard when you're doing podcasts like this where you're like, well, I don't really have anything. Just email me, you know, uh, at, at this time. So, but it's fun. It's, it's good. Yes. Thank you for asking,
Yeah.
people a chance to reach out and maybe we can get some good stuff done.
I think the listeners to this podcast, uh, my sense is they are self deterministic, initiative taking kind of people who don't need, , here's my slick marketing offer, and go here and it'll walk you through all the steps.
Like these people can just make their own introductions.
that's right.
prepared for here. Just an email address
I love all you listeners. I love you.
Me too. Alright, so our last question, we've got a time machine here. I dunno if you saw it in the back,
Okay.
get to step in and go to some point in your past and talk to a younger version of yourself, where would you go and what would you say to that younger Michelle?
Ooh, I know I'm gonna cry.
Hmm.
I've thought about this actually many times without the question, so I feel prepared, but it's still emotional for me to think about. I would go back to like junior year in high school and I would sit myself down and say, do not go to college for singing. You can do that your whole entire life.
You're already making money at it without having a degree. Continue with your study of it because you love it, but don't make that your degree. Have your degree Be something that combines all your transferable skills and let music be the thing. That you use your degree on rather than getting yourself in the system of what it means to get a degree in music.
And I wanna be clear that I am not talking about what I learned, i'm talking about the culture. The mindset and the scarcity and the competition and the unrealistic expectations and the unrealistic job prospects that when I was in college doesn't happen all the time.
Now. , I think many, many programs are much better at explaining this. It just was so toxic, Rachel. It was so toxic, and it was so not real life, you know? It was not real life and I would tell myself, don't do that. , Go get a degree in something that you love. I probably would've wound up with probably like a history or even a minor in music or an education degree, or perhaps even a business degree.
'cause I was interested in that, you know, young, . But I had totally bought hook, line and sinker into the belief that the only thing I was good at was singing,
Oh boy.
and I did not recognize any of those transferable skills. And that is what I would go back and say. I would sit myself down and be like, baby girl, we gotta talk about who you really are
Hmm.
of who you think you are based on what everybody else has told you.
Hmm.
And. Let's make a decision from everything except your voice,
Mm
because your voice will always be there. You will always be able to use it. It will always be something that is part of you and important and will be able to make you money and all of that. That's what I would do.
mm. Oh, every time I ask that question, I feel on some level, like a little piece of the wisdom of the guest moves into the past
Hmm.
, And then comes back and flows through your life. So I'll just say yes to that. Yes to that.
Thank you.
It's been such a pleasure having you on the show again.
It's been a pleasure being here again. It's kind of fun being just two months older, right? Two months different,
Uhhuh.
and getting to see you.
Yeah, it's good to see you too. And thanks for the first time and the second time.
You're welcome.
📍 Thanks everyone for listening to Lonely At the Top. If today's conversation resonated, I hope you'll give yourself permission to pause. Even for a moment and check in with what you might be carrying silently. You don't have to hold it all alone. I work with high performers and leaders who wanna clean up their secret messes, and you can learn more at RachelAlexandria.com. If you know another leader who needs to hear this show, send it to them because, yeah, it's lonely at the top, but it doesn't have to stay that way.